LotusNotes(computer.rip)
169 points byTMWNN5 days ago |26 comments
GMoromisato2 days ago
I was a developer at Iris Associates--I worked on versions 2 through 4. For version 3 I stuck in an easter egg in the About box. A certain combination of keys would produce a Monty-Python-like cut-out of Ray Ozzie's head and the names of the developers would fly out of his mouth. [This was when the software world was young and innocent and developers were trusted far beyond what they probably should have been.]

Lotus Notes was, I firmly believe, a glimpse of the future to come. In 1996, Lotus Notes had encrypted messaging, shared calendars, rich-text editing, and a sophisticated app development environment. I had my entire work environment (email, calendar, bugs database, etc.) fully replicated on my computer. I could do everything offline and later, replicate with the server.

And this was two years before the launch of Google and eight years before GMail!

In the article, the author speculates that the simplicity of the Lotus Notes model--everything is a note--caused it to become too complicated and too brittle. I don't think that's true.

Lotus Notes died because the web took over, and the web took over because it was even simpler. Lotus Notes was a thick client and a sophisticated server. The web is just a protocol. Even before AI, I could write a web server in a weekend. A browser is harder, but browsers are free and ubiquitous.

The web won because it could evolve faster than Lotus Notes could. And because it was free. The web won because it was open.

nradov2 days ago
Lotus Notes as a thick client application was a dead end but the Domino server could have lived on as a back end database for web applications, if IBM had any vision. The core technology of a fast, secure NoSQL document database with multi-master replication actually worked really well (at least after they fixed the index corruption race condition bug that I found). But it had a weird stupid limit of (I think) 64GB per file with no automatic sharding support. And they never added XML or JSON as native data types. So it gradually became useless. What a shame.
canucker20161 day ago
Look at the history of Lotus Notes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HCL_Notes#History )Development began in 1984. 64MB was large back then, maybe 64GB total was seen, but multiples of 64GB?

I guess Lotus/IBM decided to stop upgrading Lotus Notes as computer limits were increased.

Obligatory Damien Katz Lotus Notes Formula Engine Rewrite (it is a great story but also shows the limits the original devs had to deal with; n.b. scroll down to read Ray Ozzie's comment): see https://web.archive.org/web/20050110035626/http://damienkatz...

nradov1 day ago
I don't remember the details but IBM did increase the Domino file size limit a couple of times. The original limit was even smaller than 64GB. Eventually they gave up and stopped investing in the platform so after a few years it fell hopelessly behind advancements in storage hardware technology.
noAnswer1 day ago
For the longest time SharePoint's central volume could only go up to 4GB. Going above required to combine multiple volumes.

So having a limit of 64GB per file doesn't sound so bad.

andrewstuart2 days ago
There were many reasons Notes died.

It was very hard to get data in and out it had almost no capability for data import/export.

Internet email killed Notes early advantage as one of the first email systems.

It was a very closed environment hard to connect or program outside its own sandbox.

Sharepoint was a full on assault by Microsoft on the groupware category and its enormous success was at the expense of Notes.

The web did many things better than notes there much much overlap.

The UI was clunky in some ways.

Some of the concepts like replication were just too much too early for many people to grasp.

SQL rose in the corporate world chipping away further at notes.

The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too.

Unstructured document databases were very polarizing sine people hated them with a passion.

The parent company Lotus main product 1-2-3 which ad dominated the spreadsheet world got smashed by Excel.

There’s more reasons too but there’s enough there you can see the doom of Notes.

rahimnathwani2 days ago
I'm curious about this part: "The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too."

IIRC LotusScript was basically VB but with a different object model. Why was it a dead end?

andrewstuart1 day ago
Well I suppose the whole thing was a dead end.

Back then a lot of software particularly in the windows world wasn’t very good at talking to anything else. Today everything talks to everything.

Notes already had so many problems it was sunk and lotuscript which as you say was like script. Good but not enough to stop the titanic hitting the iceberg.

nradov1 day ago
It wasn't that hard to get data out. IBM released a native Windows ODBC driver for Domino databases. Since the underlying database was non-relational you couldn't really use it for SQL queries with complex joins but for basic data export tasks it worked fine.
andrewstuart1 day ago
I suppose I only really use Notes pre IBM.
goatlover1 day ago
Java became available as an alternative to Lotuscript on the backend, I believe in version 5, and Javascript was made available on the frontend around that time. Although maybe I'm thinking of the web version of the frontend.
topspin2 days ago
> Lotus Notes died because the web took over

Lotus Notes died because it was proprietary. Had it been open: an open server and open protocol, I believe every device would be using it today.

I had one good dose of that platform for four years. It was a biotech with ~100 people in five countries[1], and four states in the US. There were Notes servers all over the place, and it worked with skeletal admin resources on neglected, low cost Dell boxes. It worked for management, sales and the labs.

[1] US, Germany, France, Japan and Canada, in that order.

wolvoleo1 day ago
M365 is proprietary and it is widely used by companies
adrian_b1 day ago
M365 is used only because it is the continuation of MS Office, which had been entrenched in most companies for many decades.

In the beginning, the fact that MS Office was proprietary had nothing to do with communication protocols, but only with the file formats.

The need to convert between proprietary file formats had always existed in an enterprise setting, which is why all such products, including MS Office, had extensive support for importing the file formats of their competitors, so this was never a serious obstacle for adoption.

chris_wot1 day ago
It’s all that survived.
ferngodfather1 day ago
Yep... Movie maker, Clippy, MSN Music, Encarta, Office accounting, Money, Response Point, hell TECHNET.
jasondigitized1 day ago
Cut my teeth in Lotus Notes development. The combination of forms, views, and agents with the Notes security model was really powerful. I look at products like Notion and Coda and see nothing but Notes forms and views and formulas everywhere. Ray Ozzie was way ahead of his time.
andrewstuart1 day ago
AirTable is a straight up Notes clone.
p2detar1 day ago
I don't see it. Airtable is cloud-native and Lotus Notes is all about offline mode and replicas. Not even sure how Email fairs in Airtable, because it's a major point in Notes.
kwanbix1 day ago
AirTable? Really? As a Lotus Notes Developer working internally at IBM, I can not see the resemblance.
_nhh1 day ago
100%
WillAdams1 day ago
I am still convinced, that one way to foster professionalism in working e-mail and to facilitate collaboration would be to use e-mail as the interface for a content management system:

- incoming e-mails are categorized by organization sending/topic (until a project can be associated)

- all attachments are stripped off and stored on the server using a hierarchy which the recipient is prompted to update

- outgoing e-mails are treated in the same fashion in reverse, so a link to a file on a server is moved to the CMS and then included as a clickable link

(probably employees would have to have a separate company-sponsored e-mail for insurance correspondence)

EagnaIonat2 days ago
One of the things that killed it is it suffered the same issue as Visual Basic in that time.

Anyone could create an application. 99% of the time that anyone had 0 UX experience and created travesties that were horrible to use. So people associated the poorly designed database with the product.

dspillett1 day ago
Another major issue was that the first implementation most people saw of it was the email side, and it could be a truly clunky and unpleasant email client. This soured opinions before people delved into the document management and programmability features that email handling were just one use of.

From a technical point of view one of the bonuses I saw was that it used PKI throughout for encryption and such, which very little other software did. Though this was also clunky at times especially for non-technical users (has anyone ever made the use of PKI a smooth process for those who don't care to know the details?). Proper ACL management too rather than more simplistic permissions, but again this could be very clunky.

Though I'm not sure why we are talking entirely in the past tense, while Domino & Notes are not widely used anymore, they are still out there and developed (under the name HLC Notes) with the last release (adding LLM based “AI” features, of course…) was Jun last year and a bugfix update a few months later. My experience with Domino/Notes was in the 00s and early 10s when I was the accidental admin (the only guy who really understood it left) of a mail and document server based on it, hopefully the clunkiness complaints at least have been addressed since then.

GMoromisato1 day ago
Yes, I totally agree with this. Because Notes Email was just another app, it didn’t have some of the specific polish that even Outlook had.
jasondigitized1 day ago
This. A good Notes developer with decent UX chops could create really powerful, ROI driving applications but those guys where few and far between.
somat2 days ago
I don't entirely buy it, If true that should have killed the web, perhaps the web survived because it was not a product.
EagnaIonat2 days ago
There were UX horror stories on the web as well. I guess it is the physical connection of having to start up your Notes application in work and being forced to use poorly designed apps.
angiolillo1 day ago
I think another difference is that the Cambrian explosion of web apps vying for user attention meant that many web users had experience using both poorly-designed web apps as well as well-designed web apps and could gravitate towards the latter.

Whereas many Notes applications were internal so there was no "survival of the fittest" and the UI toolkit was passable at best. As a result, many Notes users never experienced a well-designed Notes app.

p2detar1 day ago
> Lotus Notes died

Ahm, it didn't. I mean, yes it is actively dying but not quite there yet. In fact, where I work we still make good revenue offering consulting and even products for LND. I think this part at the end of the article sums it up well:

> Lotus Notes is now HCL Notes, and as far as I can tell HCL intends to just enjoy the revenue as long as legacy customers will pay them to keep Notes running.

Yes, there are, and I dare say, a lot of legacy customers still paying for LND. So it is dying, but not as fast as people tend to think.

edit: typos

skissane1 day ago
Do you know, does anyone still have copies of Notes versions 1 and 2?

I’ve seen Notes 3 clients and servers on the usual abandonware sites, but never any pre-3.x version

dundercoder2 days ago
With everything as a note, how was it so performant? How did it scale so well?
GMoromisato2 days ago
It was basically NoSQL before NoSQL.

Each note was just a record, but with no schema. Schemas were imposed at the UI layer by forms and at indexing time by views.

shrikant2 days ago
Baffling to see this, in every place I've worked at that used Lotus Notes, it was an absolute dog on the system. Clunky, slow, and ground everything else to a halt. And this was the case even on a relatively modern laptop in 2019. Not what I'd call performant at all!
sk5t1 day ago
Notes was simple enough to allow folks with no computer science background or even sympathy for the machine to build teetering, badly-performing things.

However, even with a mind towards efficiency and minimalism, performance at roughly hundreds of thousands of documents was extremely elusive.

compiler-guy1 day ago
It wasn't performant, and it didn't scale. I was in a Notes shop in the mid-nineties and it was dog slow for practically everything in a perhaps fifty person company.
cess111 day ago
Notes isn't exactly dead. A couple of years ago I helped a swedish county extract social services data from a system built on it, which is still in use by quite a few other counties.

Among other things I wrote a batch converter from the XML based export format to PDF files packaged according to a standard for digital archives, and we brought on a specialised consultant to help us out inventing an export for system logs.

I expect there to be many products still out there that are actually built on but not advertised as LotusNotes, waiting for someone like me to come along and figure out how to decommission them. As a RAD platform Notes/Domino is apparently highly productive for those that still know how to do it.

tracker11 day ago
I can only really compare it with Access, and between the two, you can get a bit more done a bit more easily with Notes over MS Access, but that's another application that didn't get a clear path to modern usage.
pscanf2 days ago
I'm building an app that is, in a way, a modern take on Lotus Notes (https://github.com/superegodev/superego), and I couldn't feel this more:

> It is hard, today, to explain exactly what Lotus Notes was.

Whenever I try to explain what it does to a non-tech person, I'm met with confused looks that make me quickly give up and mumble something like "It's for techies and data nerds". I think to myself "they're not my target audience".

But I actually would like them to be, at some point. In the 90s "the generality and depth of its capabilities meant that it was also just plain hard to use", but now LLMs lower a lot the barrier to entry, so I think there can be a renaissance of such malleable¹ platforms.

Of course, the user still needs to "know what they need" and see software as something that can be configured and shaped to their needs which, with "digital literacy" decreasing, might be a bigger obstacle than I think.

¹ https://www.inkandswitch.com/malleable-software

jasondigitized1 day ago
If you squint, Notion and Coda are childish versions of Lotus Notes.
WillAdams1 day ago
One noted science fiction author, C.J. Cherryh, notes, “It is perfectly okay to write garbage --- as long as you edit brilliantly.”[1] --- for a while I've been wondering if this adage was applicable to Vibe-coding, and your methodology would seem to be a reasonable approach/response to get the benefits of this and to shield against the detriments, and to ensure that a human developer understands the code before committing.

1 - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/398754-it-is-perfectly-okay...

pscanf1 day ago
> your methodology would seem to be a reasonable approach/response to get the benefits of this and to shield against the detriments

If you're referring to the sandboxing / isolation of each app, I agree. Plus, the user can change the app quite easily, so if when they spot a bug, they can tell the agent to fix it (and cross their fingers!).

> ensure that a human developer understands the code before committing

Just to clarify: for Superego's app there's no human developer oversight, though. At least for the ones the user self-creates. Obviously the user will check that the app they just made works, but they might not spot subtle bugs. I employ some strategies to _decrease the likelihood of bugs_ (I wrote a bit about it here https://pscanf.com/s/351/, if you're interested), but of course only formal verification would ensure there aren't any.

WillAdams1 day ago
I was referring more to your commentary/explanation about it not being a Vibe-coded app.

Yeah, I can see that one is on their own recognizance when letting an LLM run unsupervised.

pscanf1 day ago
Ah yeah, I understand now. And I also agree with the quote then! (Though it does change the nature of the job, and it's not terribly enjoyable...)
WillAdams1 day ago
Hopefully you can find some way to keep the enjoyment in this.
dharmatech2 days ago
Just watched your demo here:

https://youtu.be/vB3xo2qn_g4?si=y2udkdfezSR9ktUO

Pretty cool!

dharmatech2 days ago
I like that you can generate new programs from within the system.

That's something I miss with Notion. I basically want a Notion but extensible and malleable like Emacs.

pscanf2 days ago
Yes! That's more or less the angle I'm going for. I mean, I don't aim just yet for Emacs-levels of malleability, but at least for something where you can create some useful day to day personal tools.
dharmatech2 days ago
Is there a story behind the old guy in the logo?
allenu2 days ago
It must be a nod to Freud (i.e. id, ego, and super ego)
pscanf2 days ago
Correct. Admittedly, graphic design is not even my passion, so there's probably lots of room for improvement. But at this point I've grown accustomed to the friendly face. :D
cess111 day ago
Thanks for sharing. The demo linked below looked pretty cool, I think this might be a nice complement to Glamorous Toolkit in some of my personal and work flows.
dharmatech2 days ago
Many people seem to associate "ego" with negative connotation.

The name gives a weird vibe. But, it's free and it's your project so, whatever. ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯

pscanf2 days ago
Yeah, I agree, though it wants to be slightly provocative as well: it's all about you, your data, your software, your rights.
dharmatech2 days ago
Ah... Ok, that makes sense.
andrewstuart2 days ago
Lotus Notes was astounding when it arrived.

Windows had barely landed. Networking was really only used for file serving in most corporations. There was no email at most companies and TCP/IP was still mostly a university and government thing.

Notes turned up as a deeply sophisticated Windows application, a no-code development environment, document oriented, replicated distributed shared data system with built in security encryption, email and all deeply integrated with the concepts of people and groups of people, which everyone takes for granted now, but back then wasn’t part of corporate computing at all.

The email alone led the rise of Lotus Notes, let alone the rest of the system.

Using Notes you could suddenly create applications that shared data across your office locations - you ran a server locally and Notes dialed up the other servers and did replication of just the changed/different data. It was gob smacking because nothing else could do this.

At a time when personal computing was very much the model, it was like someone had sent this software from the future.

EvanAnderson2 days ago
I did contract work for a company who made heavy investments into Notes-based applications. The replication capability was super cool. We would setup a new client computer on the corporate LAN, synchronize them to the various Notes databases they needed, then send the computer out to field service reps who would use the computers mostly offline. They updated over a pool of dial-up modems at headquarters. They would run mostly overnight, with the field service reps dialing-in before bed and leaving it to run until it automatically disconnected. Later they used a VPN and dial-up ISPs. It worked astoundingly well.

Their developers moved thru the organization over a period of years making Notes databases out of every paper form-based workflow process they could get their hands on. I lost touch with them and they were acquired by another company, ultimately. I'd love to know what happened to all those custom applications living in Notes. It's hard to think of a platform that could have easily replaced it-- particularly the offline sync / local first portion.

dharmatech2 days ago
Love stories like this about bespoke systems that might still be running out there somewhere.
CRConrad23 hours ago
> At a time when personal computing was very much the model, it was like someone had sent this software from the future.

The future, and mainly from the past: In the literal sense, it was derived from a mainframe application -- but above all, it carried with it that anti-personal centralised philosophy.

But yeah, from the future too: That's where we are (and have been for a good while now) headed back to, with all this "cloud"[1] stuff. The erstwhile PC is well on its way to becoming just a terminal again.

___

[1]: There is no "cloud"; it's just other people's computers.

vsajip1 day ago
In my experience working with Notes over many years, it was a neat architecture let down by client UI that did not meet the expectations of users who also used, for example, MS Office apps. Often, they were cosmetic things. But Notes enabled workflow applications like email on steroids; Microsoft leveraged all it could to displace Notes with Exchange and SharePoint, both IMO technically not as good as Notes in many areas, but the Outlook UI was much better than the Notes client for email, and together with the marketing push, client-side Notes was finished. Domino could perhaps have survived, but it needed more than the anaemic LotusScript and formula language to get support from developers, and that never happened.
kwanbix1 day ago
I agree with everything but the UI part. I think it was on par with Office. I used both at the same time. This is if you are compering Outlook, the email client, with the email app in Lotus Notes. As Lotus Notes was much more than email client. I was just the other day talking about Lotus Notes and Outlook. Lotus Notes had 3 different ways to look for info, the most powerfull one being indexing the database. My friend was praising how good Notes search was vs Outlook that never seem to find anything.

Lotus Notes Supported Formulas, LotusScript and Java.

CRConrad23 hours ago
I've only ever used Notes as a mail client, at a company I did consulting work for decades ago, for most of the 00s. (Yeah, sure, we'd heard that it was more than an email client -- but what did we care, when we didn't use it for anything else?)

Based on that, I absolutely disagree with your take on the UI: It was slow, clunky, ugly, and confusing. That was probably a (the) large(st) reason why they switched to MS Outlook.

If that was the period UI you meant, you're just wrong. Either you must have meant something newer, or you've suffered, what's it called? I think there is a name for the phenomenon, having your expectations lowered to the level of what you're getting.

kwanbix19 hours ago
I think it's important to start by saying that using Lotus Notes only as an email client misses the bigger picture, as Lotus Notes was was so much much much more than that. IBM had thouthands of custom made apps running on Lotus Notes. I had built about 50 apps.

Also, you didn't mention when you used it. I worked with Lotus Notes from 1995 to 2010, and the experience really depended on the hardware available at the time. Once it was up and running, it performed just fine if you had enough memory. For example, I still have version 8.0.2 (from 2008) on my machine, and it uses roughly 13MB at idle and up to about 50MB depending on installed apps, which isn't much by modern standards. But back in 1995, when 8MB of RAM was common, if Notes took up 6MB, I can see how that would have been a real issue. In my case, my ThinkPad had 32MB, then 64MB, and even 192MB which is the moment I installed Windows 2000.

As for the UI, the email client was highly configurable. Honestly, I don't remember ever thinking that something like Netscape Mail or The Bat looked or any email client that I tried at the time looked better. I didn't use Outlook back then, so I can't compare directly, but if Outlook over the past decade is any indication, Lotus Notes was at least on par, if not better that it.

What's really surprising is that even today, Lotus Notes had features that many modern clients still lack. For example, you could select multiple emails and forward them all together in a single message. Simple, but incredibly useful, and not something you commonly see implemented even now.

For reference, here's what the email client looked like: https://ds-infolib.hcltechsw.com/ldd/dominowiki.nsf/xpDocVie...

I still don't see how Outlook is better than that.

nradov1 day ago
Later versions of Domino also had full Java support, so you could write applications in that language and just use Domino as a back end database. But you still had to do semi-manual memory management, which made it tough for most Java programmers.
rahimnathwani2 days ago
Lotus Domino (the Lotus Notes server) still lives on as HCL Domino: https://www.wappalyzer.com/technologies/web-servers/hcl-domi...

San Francisco's school board still uses it: https://go.boarddocs.com/ca/sfusd/Board.nsf/Public

(Note the .nsf extension, which signifies a Notes database)

acomjean1 day ago
I ended up at IBM around the turn of the century. They bought Lotus and I was brought on to write lotus notes applications.

The article asks “what is notes”. For applications it’s a nosql database with a gui front end. You can make custom applications and share with your team easily. Lotusscript bound it together.

We ported a green screen tracking software (year 2000 was approaching) to Notes and had a bunch of custom Notes applications the department used regularly.

It was clunky but also kind or remarkable that a very small team could develop custom apps.

The email client was just another notes database. I later worked somewhere that had Notes and only used the email.

tracker11 day ago
Hard to imagine a place adopting Notes and just using the email... email was always kind of a shortcoming in the box. It was there, but wasn't very good imo. I think that Outlook was pretty great up until they started the cloud editions backing M365... I understand why they've changed it how they have, I just think it was better UX for most people before, even if it didn't scale well.
kwanbix1 day ago
You are absolutelly right, it was a NoSQL database with a RAID environment on top.

It was SO fast to write things in Lotus Notes, that is crazy. I did it for 10 years.

It had some limitations, I don't recall them now, but basically you could do almost anything. You had to find a way.

But it was FAST to develop. It was crazy.

senectus12 days ago
I used to manage a Domino/Notes environment back in my early days in IT.

Domino server was rock solid I never had to worry about it at all.

Notes client was clunky and not super intuitive (4.* through to version 6.01 I think) but was still quite a decent client. groundbreaking stuff for the time. I have mostly fond memories of it.

dharmatech2 days ago
What platform did you run Domino on?

If Domino was solid, I'd imagine Domino on AS/400 was near unstoppable.

projektfu1 day ago
As a user, we used two Domino servers. One was Windows NT, the other was Linux. The Linux one was incredibly performant compared to the Windows one. I think it was an example of good reimplementation using hindsight.
pickle-wizard1 day ago
In a past life I was a Domino admin and I ran it on an AS/400. It was great, handled incredible amounts of load, and required little maintenance. The only outage we had was when I accidentally deleted all the databases from the file system. Even that was pretty easy to recover from.
jasondigitized1 day ago
It was. I did some I.T. consulting in the Fortune 500 and a few ran Notes on the AS/400.
senectus12 days ago
I had an AS/400 but unfortunately never got to run it on that. (it was a JD Edwards server for the ERP system)

Nope it was on good old winNT 4

I think we may have upgraded it to windows server 2000 at one point as well.

I remember that the disk partition it ran on ran out of disk space once.. it kept ticking along. just didnt let users make changes. Amazing stuff.

DaleBiagio1 day ago
The PLATO connection is the best part of this piece.

PLATO ran its own programming language - TUTOR - which was designed specifically for creating interactive lessons on the system in 1967.

It's one of the earliest examples of a domain-specific language shaped entirely by its platform. The system also had real-time chat, message boards, and multiplayer games running on shared terminals in the early 1970s — a decade before BBSs went mainstream.

Lotus Notes, email, Slack — the entire groupware lineage traces back to a university teaching system in Illinois.

dolebirchwood5 hours ago
Fuck off, robot.
zaphod_b1 day ago
> Admittedly, IBM buying a popular software product at great expense and running it into the ground is an old story.

IBM (Rational (Pure (Atria))) ClearCase and IBM (Rational (Telelogic)) Synergy are two other casualties why I once showed a slide of the elephant cemetary from the Lion King in a Powerpoint presentation arguing why the company should switch to git.

canucker20161 day ago
They took the Computer Associates (CA) playbook and ran with it.

But IBM targeted companies that techies had heard of, while CA seemed to go after only enterprise software that ran in the backoffice.

busywaiting1 day ago
Lotus/IBM took an extremely flexible, encrypted, document-oriented database with a powerful RAD client platform and tried to sell it as a competitor to Outlook-Exchange. And Outlook-Exchange won, because as terrible as it was (and it was much worse then than it is now) it still had a better user experience than Notes Mail.

Notes insisted on a UI paradigm with widgets and controls that didn't work at all like regular OS widgets and controls. Properties boxes were tiny and hard to resize. Selecting from lists or menus required hitting tiny hidden checkmark targets. Keyboard shortcuts were divorced from the host platform. And the error messages -- and you'd get lots of them -- constantly referenced obscure internal Notes object model constructs that had no relationship to the user's mental model.

Everyone uses email. Even top executives who don't bother with the ERP system or the content management system have to use the company email program. And executives hated having to use use Notes-Domino.

compiler-guy1 day ago
Notes was so, so awful. I miss a lot of cool things from that era, but Notes is not one of them.
maztaim1 day ago
I had a not great experience with Notes. It was slow and cumbersome. I had become used to Outlook for e-mail, plain simple e-mail. It was fast, light and didn't treat everything as a note. Notes is this heavy app that was slow to load anything with an early 90's aesthetic.

I worked for a large financial (~80,000 employees) that decided to move to Notes from in-house exchange servers well after it was obvious Microsoft had won the productivity wars. Rumor mill suggested it was brought in at the direction of a board member who just so happened to have close interests with IBM.

It set overall productivity back by at least 5 years before executives were forced to make a very decisive and quick move to O365. The reason given were scalability issues, the overwhelming cost of purchasing P-Series hardware (6-digits for one server) by the rack to keep up with demand along with the cost of developers attempting to make something useful for all of the different business needs.

Last I checked they are still stuck with some small, but essential work being diverted through Notes despite the move back to Microsoft.

tracker11 day ago
I have such mixed memories regarding Lotus Notes... prior to working with software dev, I'd worked a few contract stints in data entry/lookup because I could type and 10-key very fast. Later I'd work a few different developer contract roles at the same large banking company.

One such contract was to exfiltrate a Notes based application and it's data in to a new application. Apparently integration was the real issue at hand and I can understand why after just dipping my toes into Notes. I can see how easy Notes is to create things, It was nicer than MS Access IMO. But trying to reverse engineer from said apps was painful to say the least. It turns out that the app in question ws so broadly hated, that 3 different groups had already been doing the exact same thing, with 2 others looking into it. They decided to look at the different teams in place and pick one to move forward. It wasn't the team I was on that was kept and so ends my experience with Lotus/IBM Notes.

As a pure employee a few years earlier, Notes was pretty nifty, it was used to integrate just about everything in the company. Definitely gives insight into where a lot of Dilbert jokes came from, definitely from Notes. Though allowing JavaScript in HTML email with early Outlook was a really bad design decision as well.

baggachipz1 day ago
My first dev job was a Notes developer. It really was an amazing piece of tech in hindsight. IMO their real folly was chasing the web trend; at its heart it was a groupware product, and they tried to make it be too many things to everybody. I spent most of my time trying to wrestle it into doing things it wasn't meant to do. It got me extremely proficient with LotusScript which led to other opportunities (Hello ASP!) but the whole thing is a shame. Had they stayed in their lane with the product, it might still be alive and widely used today.
tracker11 day ago
For that matter, had they invested in a web plugin that treated domino as a thin client server, they may also still be around today. Though load balancing would probably take a bit more work.
_nhh1 day ago
I joined a company in 2025 an since then I am tasked with porting all Lotus Notes databases to the web (spa+restapi). Funny to see all the comments living in the past as its so present to me.
tracker11 day ago
I haven't even seen Notes in the wild since around 2008 or so...
peter_retief1 day ago
I have certification in Lotus Notes, I quite liked it. Fairly simple to create an application but not being open source was a problem.
YVoyiatzis1 day ago
When the Mac version came out, I was all over it. WordPerfect user at the time, but wird processing was king back then. It would freeze and crash and irritate me. But I loved using it. If anything, it made things interesting for us Mac users as our options to PC software were quite virtually nonexistent.
mathattack1 day ago
I worked at a Lotus shop in the 90s. It was great until everyone moved to the web, and then it got too clunky. Fat clients that stored tons of data locally weren’t the thing anymore.

When that company moved off of Notes despite the massive investment, the writing was on the wall even if the product survived for a few decades under IBM.

unfirehose1 day ago
my favorite part of lotus notes is the password scrambler that prevents people snooping over your shoulder to steal password, I implemented this on my front-end at unsandbox dot com you can test it on teh console page even without an account, the portal itself does not have accounts.
peter_retief1 day ago
I have been waiting for someone to open source lotus notes, sadly the time is probably past.
cake-rusk2 days ago
It was bad. There was a dedicated site called lotusnotessucks.com or something like that. It does not exist anymore but here is an article about it: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2006/feb/09/guardianw...
cake-rusk1 day ago
Here's a quote from the article. Hopefully this helps the people with rose tinted glasses get some perspective...

>Lotus Notes is used by millions of people, but almost all of them seem to hate it. How can a program be so bad, yet thrive?

projektfu1 day ago
It's like the two types of languages: the ones everybody complains about, and the ones nobody uses.
tracker11 day ago
VB6? I mean, you could do some great things with it, and it was pretty easy to do things with. That said, so many people doing things with it didn't really know what they were doing, had no UX understanding and just created slop.

I think half the issues people have with AI today are simply because AI has seen just as much slop in the real world as it has "good, clear code."

slater1 day ago
Same. There was a running joke that there's exactly two people who love Lotus Notes: The boss, cos they signed off on it and can never be wrong and it shows commitment to productivity increases and nobody got fired for buying IBM and bla bla bla. The other person was the guy implementing it, cos money, money, money!

The boots on the ground cried "ugh, Lotus Notes!" in unison and just had to deal with byzantine key combos, nonstop client crashes/unresponsiveness, and moronic UI decisions some 3-person team made in like 1987.

I have opinions.

goatlover1 day ago
The development environment was quite good. It did replication and permissions really well. Email was integrated into the workflow. The Domino server was excellent. But people seemed to like the Outlook interface much better and didn't seem to care as much for implementing workflows using email.

I don't recall the client having much crashing and unresponsive issues, but I do recall people finding the UI unintuitive compared to MS products, and of course the custom products built with Notes could vary quite a bit. But so does the web, particularly the early web.

But then you can say the same thing about people building Excel apps and that has been a selling point. Or Powerpoint presentations that people complain about but keep using.

jasondigitized1 day ago
As a email client.
nailer1 day ago
I worked on IBM GS's dedicated Linux team. Notes didn't have a native client, so someone made a secret IBM internal tool call `fetchnotes` - a small binary that converted Lotus X400 email into POP3 or IMAP4 (not sure which), calendar appointments into icals, and contcts into vcard.

It got so popular - you could do your work using Thunderbird instead of Notes - that Windows users wanted to run Linux VMs to run Fetchnotes and not have to use Notes.

est1 day ago
This looks like the Lisp Curse
BoredPositron1 day ago
I would rather use LotusNotes again than the modern Microsoft stack.
tracker11 day ago
Today's C# isn't bad... assuming you aren't overcomplicating the world through excess abstraction.
tibbydudeza1 day ago
They turned it into a horrible terrible email client.
scottmcdot1 day ago
I see lots of em dash in this article.
CRConrad23 hours ago
But fortunately, you're not one of those idiots who immediately jump from that to the conclusion that "This article must be written by an AI!" — right...?